BulletProof3's Journal, 25 November 2015

IMHO, you still need to aim for a calorie goal somewhere between 1200 and 1500 or so. You can eat too much and eat too little. I would say it is less an issue, eat when you're hungry, but try and get at least 1k calories a day, more like 1200. Make up the difference with some fats. :D You need to eat FATS with your protein. Give your body what it desires for energy. Keep that supply of energy coming in, it will help your metabolism. There is a great analogy in a video by Dr. Jason Fung about a coal factory and how going on severe calorie restricted diet causes your body to realize that less and less 'coal' is showing up so it has to become more efficient and more restrictive on spending it's remaining amounts of coal because soon there will be done left. I'll find the video and post a link to the section, it explains a lot. I'm still semi-confused as to the amount of protein I need. Not just for loosing weight but also gaining muscle. I'm trying to do both and there are so few studies about the right protein requirements. I'm measuring monthly for Lean Body Mass gains; I think that I'll take it a month at a time and add 'X' daily protein more in the next month than I had in the previous to see how things go.  

the risk of eating too little is not only in the macro's. Keep track of potassium, iron, calcium(if you're a girl), b12, the obvious vitamins, fiber (for your stool because you dont want that to stall!!!), water(fluids). Also eat in the morning to start metabolism, eat regular portions to keep the digestic system going... and maybe more i forget now off the top of my head. When I do all this i always end up at 1200-1400 calories if i dont want to eat pure supplements :P 

I work much better with structure. I still will overeat when left on my own. For example: eat when hungry, stop when full. Ha, you've got to be kidding me! If I could do that I wouldn't have packed on so much weight. I need to have a number to shoot for otherwise my stomach will take over..... 

Thanks for the responses, everyone! @Frosty... is Dr. Fung's research done while the subjects are keto adapted, or on a "normal" diet? About the protein, it says in the book that I'm reading that "no one has ever shown that more than 1.5g/kg improves human protein synthesis. However generations of power athletes have made the empiric observation that they train and compete better o proportionately higher protein intaks (e.g., 1.5-2.5 grams per kg)." It also talks about finding the right protein amount for each individual, and only gives a number of 90-150 (if you don't have protein intolerance). So basically it tells you nothing...LOL. Good luck in finding your numbers. You are doing gret with the workout, btw!  

Thanks, puhpine. Your advice is well noted and appreciated. :) 

@Rckc, really? While I do currently have that problem, it was the complete opposite when I was in full blown ketosis. I would actually forget to cook for the family unless I watched the clock. 

@RCKC Yes! Same for me! Don't get me wrong when I eat what I've planned I'm full and satisfied but if I wasn't planning I would overeat every time. 

IMO higher protein amounts are needed to preserve muscle mass during calorie restriction, ie dieting. I've heard that a good target number is 0.8g/lb of lean body mass. That's the target I shoot for but I am not on a ketogenic diet. It is said that too much protein can knock you out of ketosis with some authors recommending a max of 80g/day depending on your reaction to it. In order to lose weight you do need a net caloric deficit.  

I don't think it matters as an average over the long term, I don't count calories or carbs anymore because I don't eat carbs and calories haven't been an issue since I got back into ketosis. I think it goes back to micromanaging, which I'm totally against. Do it for the long haul and it won't matter.  

I agree with you both, Catherder & Philmck. Finding the perfect amount of protein for the individual is the tough part. I've read to eat protein when you crave it, but not to force it. *shrugs* @philmack I know that once I'm back there, everything will come more naturally and less of an issue. I did read this just now:"The first study involved six subjects given a very low energy (about 700 calories per day) meat diet for 6 weeks, during which the average subject lost 25 pounds, which means that most of their daily energy came from fat stores..." From this paragraph, I personally derive that while dietary fat is not to be feared or avoided, it is not necessary to meet total caloric needs IF YOU AREN'T HUNGRY because you automatically switch to burning body fat to meet energy needs. *shrugs* 

I actually asked Dr. Jason Fung (on the Dietdoctor.com website via membership) about how much protein is needed for the body and he said on average (unless you are doing some kind of athletic training)and he gave me this ratio: 0.5g of protein per kilogram of body weight per day. In my example, I weigh 225, so converted to kilograms that is 102 multiplied by 0.5 grams and I should consume around 51 grams of protein per day. He said males could go up to 0.8 grams per day if not training. As for fat, his only solution was to consume as much as needed to make one sufficiently full, but not overly full. He does subscribe to the Keto diet and also Intermittent Fasting. He has even told me that you can go completely zero or very near zero carb because there are no essential carbs. In other words, we need protein because of the amino acids from it and we need fat because many of our vitamins are fat soluble, but the ONLY reason we would ever need carbs is for fiber and some of the other vitamins and minerals not found in protein, but they are NOT essential for optimal health. And he advocates that if you do eat carbs that they come only from non-starchy vegetables (about 1 cup per meal).. so definitely no fruit and no starchy vegetables at all. 

If you want to read more of Dr. Fung's work... he has tons of information here: https://intensivedietarymanagement.com/ 

Never heard of Dr. Jason Fung, but I like him. lol 

Ravyne- very interesting! I usually eat around 10-15 carbs a day and often wondered if it was too low. BUT my protein is quite a bit higher than his recommended. There are so many different theories out there it's hard to know what is best... 

Thanks for the info, Ravyne! I haven't read much (as I know of) on Dr. Fung, but I'm a huge fan of dietdoctor.com I'm wondering if that amount of protein is suited for someone that has a little above average muscle mass though. I'm no Hercules, but from what I've read the average female LBM is about 98 pounds, I have approx. 110 pounds of LBM. Not too much of a difference, but still I don't want to lose that little bit of extra. I think I'll dig around that site and see if I can find a calculation for LBM. Thanks again! :) 

I follow dietdoctor.com which tells me that too much protein turns into glucose in the body which will prevent ketosis. As I am insulin resistant I want to avoid that. I am averaging about 30 carbs a day. In and out of ketosis. I am only 3 months in on this. I will get the hang of it.  

I am insulin resistant also, nyhardhat, but I think I'll follow the advice in the book I was reading first. It is explained in the book that it only looks like a high protein recommendation because deficit calories are coming from body fat, thus still making it a high fat diet. Once in maintenance, I will up the calories by adding more fat instead of adding back more carbs which will then put fat at 80%. I'm by no means telling you how to plan your diet, just sharing what I read and my plans. Good luck on your journey! :) 

Kinda worded that wrong ^^. UGH...Kids have got me Santa Clause crazy today..lol. I've already tried lower protein and was hungry a lot and couldn't lose, so now I will try higher protein like the book said. 

what book are you reading, BP3? As for the protein... Dr. Fung has also said that if you listen to your body, it will tell you how much protein you need.. the body knows! So it sounds like you are listening :) 

I think the number is 57%. 57% of Protein eaten is converted to Glucose in the Liver "Gluconeogenesis". To be honest, the only time I think about how much Protein I should eat is after gym sessions. I typically focus on eating the amount of fat I need, and the protein comes along with it. Sardines, Chicken, Salmon, Beef, Pork, etc..good amounts of fat, but also sufficient protein.