FloridaAngel's Journal, 11 January 2016

You don't seem rude at all. You are just trying to be helpful : ) It's truly appreciated!!! 

Yes, Philmck, Atkins should be level by level. It's a tricky one, as this particular challenge refers to 'Induction', which by implication links to the 'bastardised' versions of Atkins. 'Dr Atkins New Diet Revolution', written by Dr Atkins, uses the term Induction phase as the title for chapter 11. Did he really put his principals aside for the detractors? I wonder. I just read the statement he made on 12 April 1973 to the Senate Select Committee on Nutrition and Human needs. He doesn't come across there as a man who would bow to the detractors. Still, we all change. I agree with you that there is a whole extra layer of non-sense marketing associated with the New Atkins. The formulated foods, bars, shakes and other processed products go in the opposite direction from how Dr Atkins set out on his original diet revolution, and it's wrong. I know nothing about South Beach. I can't say I am drawn to it from what you say. As the lowest common denominator, everybody will go into ketosis on zero carbs, and I appreciate the appeal of that approach. It's not a level where one stays though, by Atkins advice, one should move through the four levels to rest on the final one. As I have the boook newly delivered and itching to be read I just read the first day of the first level, in said chapter 12. Food included a cup of salad, raspberry gelatin and Caesar salad (with Caesar salad dressing. Day two includes green pepper and by day five there are radishes, cucumber and celery added to those foods. I haven't yet looked further. Although these are low carb foods they are not Zero carbs, which makes no sense if even the first level of Atkins Diet Revolution is ZERO carbs as you say. From my book copyright 1972, so the original publication I think. Ah, here's the rub. He states that the green leafy salads such as lettuce have so little carbs they are practically no carbs, and that we should all eat two portions a day. With that he bunches green pepper, radishes, cucumber as if they also have practically no carbs. Cucumber, green pepper and radish all have a good 3% carbs. Is that to be ignored? Truly? So by that equation we CAN eat leafy low carb veggies and still fit your perception from the original Atkins book of zero carbs in level 1. When does a carb become a carb?? Can we not count the carbs in low carb veggies? Woo Hoo! My figures just became AWESOME :D 

Philmck, you don't sound rude. I probably do. :) I'm not, but I am a stickler for detail and accuracy, much like yourself. I appreciate your input. 

Good information, thanks for that Penlan. When you're finished reading Diet Revolution let me know if I missed where it was directed that one must eat vegetables.  

Will do. Given that even in level one all the lunches and dinners, and some snacks in the meal plans include vegetables, and by level 5 (I didn't realise there were 5 levels, sorry) pretty much all meals and snacks have vegetables and even fruit I would say it's a given, but I will look out in the body of text for any particular directive. Small print, where's my glasses..... long night ahead :) 

Allowed isn't the same as "must eat".  

Oh, and read the first two pages of Ch. 13 of Diet Revolution, that might add some needed clarification.  

Penian - Would you share with me, somewhat of a newbie, what the Garden of life diet is or what program you are following as I am in a similar situation trying to stick to under 20 g carbs. Appreciate it, thanks 

Philmck - you asked where the original Atkins directed that one must eat vegetables. I haven't read the book yet, but a look in the index gives several places indicating vegetables in the Atkins diet, as well as recipes. Chapter 9 Myth unlearned "You get ample bulk and variety from the green salad and other vegetables on the diet". The Diet Rules, rule number two - eat as much of the allowed foods as you need to avoid hunger. The rule list is immediately followed by a list of vegetables, then salads. Plus number 2: Green salads plus... (this section makes for interesting reading.) "The second plus is that you are allowed green salad." Sure, allowed is not the same as a directive, but he goes on to say - "So why not eat those salads? They are a life-saver. To eat protein and fat without the garden-fresh crispness that salad provides is a drudgery. So I thank the Lord that greens contain so little carbohydrate. These salads make all the difference between a diet that's appetizing, human, and one that's an uncivilized drag" I think all these statements, and the fact that vegetables are in lunches and dinners right from the off, are tantamount enough to a directive to eat leafy green vegetables on the Atkins diet, and at all levels. Chapter 13 indeed has more insight on his positive approach to including the right sort of vegetables on the Atkins diet. Reading on past the first two pages there are statements such as "This diet is fixed only for a week." (the meal plans include vegetables, that's pretty fixed) and that "additions (of carbohydrate) are interchangeable and flexible. You can make any of these additions any week that you choose" and "There is more about the delicious use of vegetables later.". Lots more references too. So, the idea that Atkins Diet has no requirement for vegetables is, as far as I see it, erroneous.  

Chapter 13, 2nd Paragraph- "The reason you lose weight is that when there are NO carbohydrates for fuel the body is forced to burn its own fat. It really doesn't matter how rich the ZERO carbohydrate foods are" There is no directive that vegetables MUST be eaten, it really comes down to a matter of preference.  

The whole concept of "Foundation Veggies" wasn't a part of the original Atkins diet. "Salad greens" were allowed, and even encouraged, but that's a far cry from the big emphasis on "veggies" that the Atkins people currently push.  

I know it is NOT recommended by ATKINS, BUT..when I would get stuck I would take 2 days off, increase my calories and carbs...for 2 days only and then go back to eating as I am supposed to with Atkins WOE. Worked every time..started losing again. 

That works, Jewels, but so does a fat fast. Again, it's down to individual preferences.  

Great info and ideas everyone! So many different options, thanks! 

Yup, he refers to "this basic zero carbohydrate diet". But that ZERO isn't actually a zero, as the salads and vegetables in the meal plans are so low that he dismisses them, saying earlier in the Plus number 2 "Yes, even though this first week of the diet is called a carbohydrate-free diet and lettuce only contains a tiny bit of carbohydrate.... ... Given the amount of carbohydrate in these two salads, what happens in the body is approximately the same in 99 percent of dieters a if no salad had been eaten. So why not eat those salads?" It seems basic zero isn't actually actual zero. Sure, there probably isn't a bold statement which says one MUST eat vegetables, but there are plenty statements indicating TO eat salads and other low carb vegetables, for various reasons, and with various justifications. Why else make so many mentions of them in such ways as I have shown, and include them in the meal plans in the chapter of Meal Plans and Recipes? So, as Atkins suggests that the eating of said salads and vegetables (even tomatoes!) is a good thing, I'm happy with that. If he chooses, as he does, to write off the carbohydrate in those vegetables as zero, it is rather odd and imprecise. The more I read of this original book the more I realise it is rather imprecise, but that is often the case with new works. For me, the concept of writing off low carb veg as no carb veg is just plain daft. When does a low carb vegetable aka basic zero carb become a real carb vegetable which has to be counted?? It's certainly possible why the later editions (Atkins New Diet Revolution) suggest 20g carbs with 12g - 15g from the right kind of leafy green vegetables. I think the idea of counting low carbohydrate veg as zero carb in the first book could well have caused problems for Atkins, which was possibly addressed by changing the plan to include the counts of carbs from whatever source, and, as he clearly sees vegetables as a benefit, there became a proper analysed veg based carb limit for the initial phase and on. For sure, nothing I say will be able to convince you that Atkins wants all people following his diet revolution plan to include vegetables, if you don't want to see it. I see it plain as day in the text I have read, and quoted. I don't want to convince you of anything, it is for you to make your own conclusion from the text as written, as it is mine. It's all ok. I have a bias towards eating veg, you possibly do not. In the end it doesn't matter, as Atkins himself says, it is "as variable as individual tastes". I like my veg for all sorts of reasons, as did Atkins.  

You highlighted a few of the many reasons I quit describing my diet as "Atkins". As I've previously stated, it's a matter of personal preference. I don't dislike vegetables and eat a fair share of them. My point of contention is with people that insist that "12-15 net grams of carbs in Foundation Veggies MUST be eaten", that's not in the original plan and was only included in later versions to make the diet seem healthier. I do an LCHF diet based on Atkins principles, but not The Atkins Diet.  

Doesn't adding in leafy and low carb veg improve the diet's health benefits? Atkins suggests it does, even in the original book. I am happy that the original book doesn't make those statements for 12g-15g of carbs from veg. Yes I quoted that from the later editions, mea culpa, I didn't realise the challenge was fixed to the original plan. Things evolve, even the Atkins diet plan, for whatever reason. Change isn't always good, though sometimes it is. You are right though, in doing what suits the individual, we all must do that. Like you, the more I have read the more I realise I am not following the Atkins diet, but my own. It's been an interesting journey so far, and it's not over yet. Thanks for your input, it's certainly stimulating, and I value you sharing your experiences. You said you do LCHF based on Atkins principals. Have you increased your carbs on the Atkins principals to find your maximum tolerance? I understand the effects of increasing carbs, I have yet to push mine back up as I've been lowering them to see what happens. It takes time, it's fine, I still have plenty scope for experimentation, plenty weight to lose yet. 

It became apparent, even before Robert Atkins passed away, that the diet that bears his name had turned into an enterprise first and foremost. I didn't realize it was a challenge, more an academic exercise than anything else. I like green leafy vegetables, and I'm sure it makes the diet "healthier" in some regards, but the fact is the diet without the vegetables is healthy to begin with. As to my own diet regimen, I'm not exactly sure of my average daily carb intake. Most days I once in the afternoon and again around 8pm, usually consisting of a high fat protein. Sometimes I throw in some high fiber veg, but never, never, never any kind of root vegetable, starch, grain, or legume. And forget about fruit. I've still not where I want to be and I'm not tinkering around with sugar in any form.  

Yup, I think you are right there Philmck, the Atkins brand came so big that even Atkins himself got on the bandwagon to push more units. That's a shame, given the original standpoint he had. Human nature though I suppose. I mention challenge in the context of the 'Four weeks Atkins Induction' FS challenge of which this discussion is part. For me ATM I am similar for the most part in what you eat, but do tinker with minimal fruit. I can't tolerate grains of any kind or legumes and pulses, so that's easy for me :) I did eat a lot of fruit before I discovered LCHF, and I still eat a lot of veg. I have 10 kilos to go and I do lose weight even eating a lot of fruit and feel good on it, so I guess I am fortunate there. Potatoes - wow, they are a killer, if I have white potato my weight stalls, so no more potato. Although I have plenty weight to go I am wondering what it will be like to have more carbs again. Once I have lost weight I suppose I do that - or do people stay LCHF and maintain weight by eating more? I suppose with the knowledge of how to spread carbs to avoid overload they can be increased without necessarily laying down fat? As our individual levels of sensitivity vary I suppose we have to just take it step by step. Thanks for your help and sharing your experience!