Thermodynamics? Not really...

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Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 07:51
Thanks for the compliment! Accusing me of steroids. Made my day. Go pout in your delusional bubble
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 11:06
Diablo360x wrote:
Please post these 1-2 week studies. I gain and lose 3-5 lbs. from morning to night, you're going to tell me LC diets only have people losing 2-3lbs. of waterweight? Haha, maybe in a 90lb person.


You want me to post hundreds of studies? It's a standard protocol.

Why are you imagining I am going to be weighing myself at random times of the day? It will be morning weight. Though I will say I usually weigh 1-2 pounds more at bedtime than in the morning, probably because I am a smaller person than you are.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 11:11
Diablo360x wrote:
So, you're saying that people posting here are unhealthy? Way to generalize! Most of the obese people I know are considered healthy. If you're not healthy, you may want to visit your doctor before getting on a weight loss program.


A lot of people here are unhealthy. This is a site for unhealthy people, if obesity is a health problem. People here are unhealthy to different degrees and in different ways, probably more so than the public at large, where many are unhealthy.

I was unhealthy when I was 215 pounds.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 11:15
Diablo360x wrote:
Also, your chart up there is also affected by the continuing ease of living. Each year that went by after 1980 saw the growth of more and more desk jobs. Dinner plates have gotten bigger, electronic entertainment is getting more prevalent. People are stuck in front of the tv and when they et up it's to use the computer or to grab their portable cpu, their phones and tablets.


Jobs are not more sedentary than they were in the 70s. There were as many desk workers then as there are now. And more people than ever are exercising. I was around in the 70s. Exercise for fitness was unknown when I graduated from high school in 1972. I came from a family where we sat in front of the television all evening, just like every other family in the neighborhood.
mmoodd69

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 126

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 12:01
From ODAAT:

Quote:
I tried to post this in reply to you but got a message that Your post is awaiting moderation and will be visible once approved." I asked mmoodd69 to post this for mein reply to [Diablo360x] question "Where am I disagreeing? CICO is still king."


Calories in calories out tells us nothing about why people are over eating. That's the problem, it doesn't explain the causality. If you walk by a room and see a lot of people inside and ask why there are so many people inside you probably wouldn't be happy if someone it explained it by saying "well, because more people went in the room than left the room." It's true, but it says nothing about why the people went in the room. A causal explanation would be "because there is going to be a lecture later." That's an explanation that actually tells us something.

CICO is true, but it says nothing to explain the underlining mechanism of why people are eating more than they are burning. That's when we get into statements like because people are pigs, have no self-control, eating their emotions, they're too lazy to exercise etc. Basically it invites moral judgements when there is actually a physiological explanation. You saw something similar in the past when it came to mental disorders. Schizophrenia was explained as demon possession at one point. Alcoholism was explained in a similar way to obesity, lack of control, laziness etc. The fact is to believe that obesity is simply a moral failing would mean you would have to believe that over night sometime in 1980 people immediately lost all self control.

Dr. Robert Lustig has an interesting explanation that gives a casual explanation. It has to do with insulin. Imagine you eat 1500 calories a day and are a normal weight. Now imagines one morning without your knowledge someone is following behind you an injecting you with insulin after every meal.

You eat your normal breakfast of 500 calories and are immediately injected with insulin. This hormone causes some amount of your calories to immediately turn to stored fat. For the sake of simplicity lets say 100 calories. Now, you are eating what you've always eaten but you're still hungry because you don't have access to 100 calories of food.

At work you're sort of dragging because you only have access to 400 calories of your breakfast. Instead of taking parking far away from the office and the stairs you decide to park close and take the elevator. At lunch you order your normal 500 calorie meal but again you're injected with insulin and 100 calories is immediately turned to fat. At this point you normally would have 1000 calories worth of energy but today you only have 800 calories and you're 200 calories fatter. Probably more because you're not exercising as much because you're drained for some reason.

When you get back to the office there is a birthday party that afternoon. Normally you would resist cake and ice cream but today you're so hungry and tired for some reason you don't understand and really could use that sugar spike. You eat 200 calories of cake and are immediately injected with more insulin which turns a portion of that, say 50 calories to fat. You've eaten 1200 calories so far but only have access to 950 calories and are 250 calories fatter. You have also been less physically active than the day before due to fatigue and hunger.

At home you eat your regular 500 calorie meal, are injected with insulin again and 100 calories turns to fat. You're up to 1700 calories at this point just to get the energy you would have gotten from 1500. You're 350 calories fatter, tired, hungry, you have no energy to do anything but sit on the couch, maybe eat some potato chips because you're still sort of hungry.

Rinse. Repeat.

Maybe one day you gain weight and decide to follow the government's healthy diet guidelines. That involves eating tons of carbohydrates which just increase this cycle. People call you lazy or weak-willed but you never consider maybe it's the advice to load up on beans, grains, corn and starch that's the problem, not you.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 13:46
Along with Taubes Lustig is a laughing stock on serious nutrition forums so I honestly quit reading when I got to his name. Also, that guy can't post because a moderator deemed it so. Skirting the rules there. Nice.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 13:54
eKatherine wrote:
Diablo360x wrote:
So, you're saying that people posting here are unhealthy? Way to generalize! Most of the obese people I know are considered healthy. If you're not healthy, you may want to visit your doctor before getting on a weight loss program.


A lot of people here are unhealthy. This is a site for unhealthy people, if obesity is a health problem. People here are unhealthy to different degrees and in different ways, probably more so than the public at large, where many are unhealthy.

I was unhealthy when I was 215 pounds.



Unhealthy enough that our body metabolizes food in a totally different way? Sounds more like a rare disease. If you truly believe that, what iss making you metabolize food differently than me now that you're healthy?
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 14:15
Ok, I broke down and read it anyway. ODAAT, you have a different argument. I am not on the subject of satiety. This thread originally set out to disprove thermodynamics and since you believe in CICO, we have no 'beef'.

I suggest that people who have a tendency to get uncontrollable hunger when eating sweets avoid them. I've said it before. In a mixed meal insulin response is very similar whether the meal is 'clean' or 'dirty'. I really don't feel like looking up the study anymore.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 14:35
Another thing, we are not going to be able to reverse conveniences that make us more sedentary and foods that are calorie dense and cheap to make. This is why I would rather attempt to eat nutrient dense food and have treats in moderation. I'd rather learn to moderate than abstain. Everyone needs to find what works for them.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 17:41
Diablo360x wrote:

Because they do not matter. http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319

We are going in circles. New guy comes in with irrelevant info.....


You've been here all along with irrelevant info buddy.

Here is my response to the article you linked. Enjoy.

"However, in healthy people, insulin only goes up in response to meals."

Yes? Healthy people. People with a metabolism that is not out of whack. People with a metabolism that is out of whack will have poor insulin control. And they will get fat if they get a substantial amount of their calories from carbs.

For someone without that problem, they can probably muscle through eating carbs and maintaining a calorie deficit to lose weight.

Quote:
MYTH: Carbohydrate Drives Insulin, Which Drives Fat Storage

FACT: Your Body Can Synthesize and Store Fat Even When Insulin Is Low


haha. Like every other mainstreamer when confronted with a pesky fact, they deflect and obfuscate. So what if the body is able to store fat with low insulin levels? It does not change the fact that carbs drive insulin which drives fat storage.

Quote:
MYTH: Insulin Makes You Hungry

FACT: Insulin Suppresses Appetite


How come the 'fact' doesn't say 'acutely'?

And this is more misdirection really. Insulin drives blood sugar down. If it goes too low it triggers a hunger response. Even in an otherwise healthy person that can ELMM WB and lose weight this can happen. If your metabolism is screwed it will happen often. Over eating in response to this condition is not a character flaw or a sign of a floppy dolt with no will power. It is a biological imperative.

If you are an ELMM WB CICO fan that gets hungry around 10am after eating breakfast at 7am or 8am, I'll be seeing you on the LC forums in a few years when you are fat. You can jog my memory by mentioning the pic of diablo that you have taped to your dart board.

This is specifically about breakfast but the salient issue is the spike in insulin, the drop in blood sugar and the resulting hunger.

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2012/08/17/eating-breakfast.aspx
Quote:
The circadian cortisol peak has an impact on your insulin secretion, such that when you eat during this time it leads to a rapid and large insulin release, and a corresponding rapid drop in blood sugar levels, more so than when you eat at other times of the day. If you're healthy, your blood sugar levels won't drop to a dangerously low level (such as can occur with hypoglycemia) but they can drop low enough to make you feel hungry.


Quote:
MYTH: Carbohydrate Is Singularly Responsible for Driving Insulin

FACT: Protein Is a Potent Stimulator of Insulin Too


Holy crap. 75g of protein in one shot in a liquid breakfast? Yes, no doubt OD'ing on protein creates an insulin response. Of course it does. Excess insulin is turned into .... glucose which is ... what carbohydrates are. And 75g or 125g of carbs is a lot of carbs to slug down too in one 'meal'.

For typical eaters, carbs *are* singularly responsible for driving insulin.

Thanks to Phinney, Volek, Westman, et.al., informed LC'rs are well aware of the insulinogenic properties of protein and they moderate their protein to avoid gluconeogenisis. I bet LC'rs are more aware of this issue than ELMM WB'rs. Even outside of actual conversion to glucose protein usually creates a mild insulin response.

Further on, the 4 protein study is brought up to show, I guess, that gluconeogenisis doesn't explain insulin response to protein intake? What I notice that I am sure the writer did not exactly want to highlight is that high protein (75g) and high carbs (75g-125g) creates a heck of an insulin response while lower protein (51g) and actually low carbs (11g) has far less of an impact on insulin response.

I'm very happy to see that whoever wrote this is confirming that carbs do indeed make you fat.

Hey, maybe you didn't notice this but you need to get on the stick and let this guy know he is spreading misinformation:

Quote:
You can see that the insulin response was exaggerated in the obese subjects, probably due to insulin resistance.


What?!? Insulin resistance?!? He obviously hasn't read that crappy 'you are not different' article you posted earlier. You better send it over post paid so he can stop spreading misinformation. If fat people are different your entire CICO house of carbs comes tumbling down.

Look at that chart he has there. Fat people kept elevated insulin levels for hours after eating. Insulin. The stuff that discourages use of body fat for fuel and encourages fat storage. Holy cow.

"Thus, there’s a lot more that’s behind insulin secretion than just carbohydrate."

Again, this simply means that other foods can create an insulin response. It does not in any way lessen the insulin response that carbs produce. It is like banging your thumb with a hammer and your friend diablo stomping on your foot and saying, see! the hammer isn't the only thing that causes pain!!! so the hammer does not exist. Do not try to bend the hammer, that is impossible. There is no hammer.

"Amino acids (the building blocks of protein) can directly stimulate your pancreas to produce insulin, without having to be converted to glucose first"

Yep. Protein can be mildly insulinogenic.

Quote:
The fact is that insulin is not this terrible, fat-producing hormone that must be kept as low as possible.


This sort of thing bugs the crap out of me. Essentially this person is brow beating LC'rs on forums for saying something like 'I try to keep my insulin low' when the reality is that LC regulates insulin response, particularly in a person that has poor insulin regulation which has caused them to gain weight. But saying 'I keep it low' sums it up succinctly if not clinically meticulously accurate.

Get that? For some reason an LC'r *must* always state the benefits of LC (like insulin regulation), 100% exactly right or articles like this try to rip them to shreds. On the other hand, people that misstate the case for CICO ELMM WB, saying for example that the Laws of Thermodynamics proves CICO, are given a pass. If an LC'r is wrong about something then LC is discredited. If a mainstreamer is wrong about something then the mainstream is still hunky dory.
Nag1ka

Joined: Jan 12
Posts: 101

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 17:59
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:14
Diablo360x wrote:
How, just how did I lose an average of 2.53 lbs. a week while eating like that? My insulin levels should have been through the roof and I should have stalled out or gained fat. Nope, I lost almost exactly as much weight as my CICO details showed.


You are an obtuse fellow diablo.

*Your* metabolism can obviously handle carbs efficiently. Do you know what that proves? It proves your metabolism can handle carbs efficiently. You know what it doesn't prove? It doesn't prove that *my* metabolism can handle carbs efficiently.

*You* are the healthy person that the guy that wrote that insulin article was talking about.

The fat people that do not have your metabolism that are victims of your anti-LC rhetoric will spectacularly fail to lose weight the way you have. But since you believe that LC *must* be wrong for you to be right they will stay fat and miserable longer because they believe the type of stuff you are saying in this thread.

Even when you yourself have been dragged by the horse of logic into grudgingly admitting that LC is okay for people if for no other reason than limiting options creates a calorie deficit (which is complete BS but whatever) --- even then, because of *your* personal fixation on enjoying carbs, you would deny a fat person even the possibility of exploring reducing carbs to lose weight. Why? Well, just like all of your posts, because *you* can eat carbs and lose weight *everyone* should be able to do the same.

Truly that is an awful reason to condemn everyone to toeing the line you draw for weight loss.



reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:17
Diablo360x wrote:
So, you're saying that people posting here are unhealthy? Way to generalize! Most of the obese people I know are considered healthy. If you're not healthy, you may want to visit your doctor before getting on a weight loss program.


Hold up there brother.

*You* were saying just a few pages ago that 'fat is unhealthy'.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:20
Diablo360x wrote:
eKatherine wrote:
Diablo360x wrote:
So, you're saying that people posting here are unhealthy? Way to generalize! Most of the obese people I know are considered healthy. If you're not healthy, you may want to visit your doctor before getting on a weight loss program.


A lot of people here are unhealthy. This is a site for unhealthy people, if obesity is a health problem. People here are unhealthy to different degrees and in different ways, probably more so than the public at large, where many are unhealthy.

I was unhealthy when I was 215 pounds.


Unhealthy enough that our body metabolizes food in a totally different way? Sounds more like a rare disease. If you truly believe that, what iss making you metabolize food differently than me now that you're healthy?

I see now that you have just redefined "unhealthy" to change it from how you used it in the quote above. Yet another moving target.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:22
Diablo360x wrote:
I got into great shape while driving my insulin levels through the roof. Did it affect my physique?


Do tell. A person without metabolic issues can get into shape while carbing up. I think you just described about, roughly, a zillion body builders.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:41
Diablo360x wrote:
It should be a requirement for anyone that is serious about health and nutrition to read the 'stickys' on the bodybuilding.com 'losing fat' and 'nutrition' forums. This thread and all the people freaking about insulin would not exist.


It should be a requirement for anyone that is serious about propagandizing for the mainstream to read Why We Get Fat or Good Calories Bad Calories. This thread and all the mainstreamers freaking out about LC would not exist.
Nag1ka

Joined: Jan 12
Posts: 101

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:46
reddarin wrote:
This thread and all the mainstreamers freaking out about LC would not exist.


reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:47
Diablo360x wrote:


Since we hate those dirty myths, I thought this thread would be relevant here. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=492749

"The Glycemic Index


I really thought you'd whipped yourself last time you argued with yourself about the efficacy of the GI/GL.

Clearly you are back and raring for another knock down drag out with yourself over GI.

Just know, despite any overt acrimony displayed in this thread, we are all behind you and we know you will beat you on this issue.

Everyone! Group hug for diablo as he trudges back into battle with diablo over the GI.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 18:48
Nag1ka wrote:
reddarin wrote:
This thread and all the mainstreamers freaking out about LC would not exist.



I don't mind the funny pics Nag but could you try to resize them so they don't mess up the page formatting?

Smile
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 19:17
mmoodd69 wrote:
That's one reason I still suspect Spacey (or whatever his new sockpuppet name is) and Diablo are actually the same person. They're both vain, arrogant, geared up know-it-all gymboys who have the EXACT SAME line of crap, don't know that they're ignorant about many things and are closed-minded and immune to other people's experiences. The only real difference is Spacey was "bad CICO cop" and Diablo tries to play "good CICO cop," but if they're not the same person, they're still so similar that it's creepy.


I do not believe that the person behind the Spacey accounts has sufficient mental capacity to pull off posting as two different people. At least not as frequently as the two of them post.



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