Thermodynamics? Not really...

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Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 01:53
I do not disagree with that. Yes, carbs are tastey and not the most filling macros. This is why they are easy to overeat. But it's not the carbs, it's the total calories that matter at the end of the day. Correlation does not equal causation. You see carbs contain calories, calories in abundance make you fat. I eat 50% of my calories from carbs. I continue to lose fat because I monitor my calories...
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 01:55
It should be a requirement for anyone that is serious about health and nutrition to read the 'stickys' on the bodybuilding.com 'losing fat' and 'nutrition' forums. This thread and all the people freaking about insulin would not exist.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:00
Also, your chart up there is also affected by the continuing ease of living. Each year that went by after 1980 saw the growth of more and more desk jobs. Dinner plates have gotten bigger, electronic entertainment is getting more prevalent. People are stuck in front of the tv and when they et up it's to use the computer or to grab their portable cpu, their phones and tablets.

High calorie cheap food+being more sedentary=rising obesity.

But with knowledge and the will to want to change, all of that can change. I have a desk job I watch TV and play videogames daily but I also monitor my intake and I go to the gym 3 times a week or more. Exercise is not needed but it's healthy and helps me have a larger deficit.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

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Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:06
They are also easier to overeat because of the way carbohydrates interact with the hormone leptin If you consistently eat carbohydrates your body becomes immune to the affect of leptin. Leptin is the hormone that tells you that you're full and to stop eating. Resistenace to the affects of leptin is why people can eat entire bags of cookies and chips. Just try to eat a pound of butter, it's nearly impossible for most people because leptin sends signals to say stop. Many people can eat a pound of cookies or chips though. So, glucose stimulates leptin expression which causes people to build up a resistance. The immediate postprandial rise in insulin and BG following a carbohydrate rich meal, would stimulate secretion of leptin, which would show higher levels more delayed than the insulin/glucose response or a different pattern of peaking.


Quote:
Leptin (Greek λεπτός (leptos) meaning "thin" is a 16-kDa protein hormone that plays a key role in regulating energy intake and expenditure, including appetite and hunger, metabolism, and behavior. It is one of the most important adipose-derived hormones.





Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2001 Dec;226(11):1037-44.
High glycemic index carbohydrate diet alters the diurnal rhythm of leptin but not insulin concentrations.
Herrmann TS, Bean ML, Black TM, Wang P, Coleman RA.
Source

Department of Nutrition, University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, North Carolina 27599, USA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11743140






(...) the high GI CHO diets, A and C, altered the 24-hr leptin profiles. Serum leptin rose >above the 0800 hr baseline as early as 1300 hr, whereas leptin concentrations with diets B and D did not rise above baseline until 2400 hr. The leptin AUCs from 1230 hr to 2400 hr for diets A and C were significantly higher than for diets B and D (P < 0.0001) using the first model.

The 24-hr AUCs for leptin on diets A and C were significantly greater than the AUCs for leptin on diet B (P < 0.003) using the second model. Meals indicated as solid arrows, open arrows equal snacks.

From J Am Coll Nutr. 2003 Jun;22(3):247-51.
Postprandial leptin response to carbohydrate and fat meals in obese women.
Romon M, Lebel P, Fruchart JC, Dallongeville J.
Source Service de Nutrition, Faculté de Médecine (M.R.), Institut Pasteur Lille, Lille Cedex, France. mromon@univ-lille2.fr
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12805252




You can see that approximately at the 3 hour mark, leptin concentrations start to rise in both normal and obese women. So there seems to be an steady increase, not a spike, but an increase in the end, which was correlated to carbohydrate but not fat (note the concentration of leptin in obese and lean in the picture above):






More information about leptin and carbs. http://paleohacks.com/questions/80052/do-carbs-spike-leptin#axzz2a2Q0HNry
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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

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If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

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Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:15
Thanks for that last post. Carbs being easy to eat is common knowledge. People don't need to see the science behind it to gather that. Body weight still comes down to CICO in the end. Carbs being easy to eat does not disprove thermodynamics which is the point of the OP.

Since we hate those dirty myths, I thought this thread would be relevant here. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=492749

"The Glycemic Index

Many bodybuilders follow the gylcemic index (GI) religously, and they shouldn't! Why so? Well, the GI is based on eating carbohydrates on an empty stomach without the addition of protein, lipids, fiber, water, etc. Therefore, it obviously has it's shortcomings and is not the be all end all choice for chosing our carbohydrate sources. Truth is, it's quite irrelevant when it comes to bodybuilding purposes. Let's take white potatoes for example. This food species is often avoided mainly because of it's high GI rank. Foolish. White potatoes are a very nutritious food and should be incorporated in a sound nutrition program. See, we're already spotting shortcomings challenging the elements and principles of the GI. But wait, there's more. The GI of that white potato can be drastically altered by combining it with the addition of protein, lipds, fiber, and other carbohydrates. In conclusion, the GI should not be followed religiously by bodybuilders and nutrient-density should be the main principle in one's nutrition plan, not the GI.

Threads regarding the GI:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...light=elements"
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:17
This one is a doozy. So gooood. http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=283787&highlight=elements
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:18
Again, this shows the role of HORMONES on weight.

Postprandial leptin response to carbohydrate and fat meals in obese women.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12805252

METHODS:

Quote:
Eight obese and 11 lean women were given, in a random order, an isocaloric carbohydrate meal (3.43 MJ, 166g of carbohydrates, 38g of proteins) or fat meal (3.35 MJ, 70g of fat, 36g of proteins) or remained fasting. Blood samples were collected hourly during the nine hours after the meal for leptin, insulin, C-peptide and glucose determinations.
RESULTS:

In obese subjects, as in lean subjects, postprandial leptin response, calculated as the increment above fasting values, was higher after the carbohydrate meal than after the fatty meal (p < 0.01). However, after the carbohydrate meal, postprandial leptin increment was lower (p < 0.05) in obese subjects than in lean controls.


In contrast, there was no difference in postprandial leptin response between lean and obese subjects after the fatty meal. Correlation analyses showed that the area under the postprandial leptin response curve (leptin AUC) was correlated to insulin AUC in lean (r = 0.70, p < 0.01), but not in obese subjects.
CONCLUSION:

These results indicate that postprandial leptin response is lower after a carbohydrate meal in obese women than in lean controls, suggesting an impairment of postprandial leptin regulation in obese women.



So in both lean and obese people, after eating a high carb meal the leptin response was significantly higher than the fasting rate. But later on in obese subjects the increment amount of hormone that tells us we're not hungry was lower compared to lean people. In other words it spiked in both lean and obese, went way up then went down much lower in obese subjects than lean people. So the amount of hormone saying STOP EATING goes way up while eating high carb meals, but in obese people it drops off much lower and doesn't maintain the signal to prevent the obese person from feeling hungry. That could explain why obese people feel hungry again after eating high carb meals rather than long term satiety that lean people would feel after the same meal. Hormones, they really do affect different people differently!

Anyone overweight person who has ever gone to a Chinese buffet probably knows what they're talking about in this study. You get very full but then you're hungry again a short time later. This is more true the fatter your are. Compare than to someone who eats a very fatty protein rich meal, they can be full for 6 hours or more.


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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

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If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

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onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:21
Diabol you obviously aren't reading anything I'm posting.
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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:27
You're still not proving that CICO is not king. Satiety is another discussion. In a mixed meal satiety would be pretty equal anyways.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:32
How would you know what I'm proving without reading anything that contradicts your world view? The reason I can tell you didn't read it is because your didn't comment or ask for clarification of anything.

Either you understood everything perfectly, you're too arrogant to admit you didn't understand some thing or you didn't read it whatsoever. I wouldn't believe a laymen could understand it all perfectly, wouldn't want to call a stranger arrogant so through process of elimination I'm led to believe you didn't bother to read any of it. To bolster that theory you responded much too quickly to have read it.
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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 02:52
In what world is satiety not related to hunger, weight loss, hormones, weight gain etc? It's all interconnected and the connection is HORMONES.

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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 03:04
Where am I disagreeing? CICO is still king.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 04:24
Calories in calories out tells us nothing about why people are over eating. That's the problem, it doesn't explain the causality. If you walk by a room and see a lot of people inside and ask why there are so many people inside you probably wouldn't be happy if someone it explained it by saying "well, because more people went in the room than left the room." It's true but it says nothing about why the people went in the room. A causal explanation would be "because there is going to be a lecture later." That's a causal explanation.

CICO is true but it says nothing explain the underlining mechanism of why people are eating more than they are burning. That's when we get into statements like because people are pigs, have no self-control, eating their emotions, they're too lazy to exercise etc.

Dr. Robert Lustig has an interesting explanation that gives a casual explanation. It has to do with insulin. Imagine you eat 1500 calories a day and are a normal weight. Now imagines one morning without your knowledge someone is following behind you an injecting you with insulin after every meal.

You eat your normal breakfast of 500 calories and are immediately injected with insulin. This hormone causes some amount of your calories to immediately turn to stored fat. For the sake of simplicity lets say 100 calories. Now, you are eating what you've always eaten but you're still hungry because you don't have access to 100 calories of food.

At work you're sort of dragging because you only have access to 400 calories of your breakfast. Instead of taking parking far away from the office and the stairs you decide to park close and take the elevator. At lunch you order your normal 500 calorie meal but again you're injected with insulin and 100 calories is immediately turned to fat. At this point you normally would have 1000 worth of energy but today you only have 800 and you're 200 calories fatter. Probably more because you're not exercising as much because you're drained for some reason.


When you get back to the office there is a birthday party that afternoon. Normally you would resist cake and ice cream but today you're so hungry and tired and really could use that sugar spike. You eat 200 calories of cake and are immediately injected with more insulin which turns a portion of that, say 50 calories to fat. You've eaten 1200 calories so far but only have access to 1150 and are 250 calories fatter.

At home you eat your 500 calorie meal, are injected with insulin again, 100 turns to fat. You're up to 1650 calories just to get the energy you would have gotten from 1500. You're tired, hungry, you have no energy to do anything but sit on the couch. You might eat a snack later.

Rinse. Repeat.

Maybe one day you gain weight and decide to follow the government's healthy diet guidelines. That involves eating tons of carbohydrates which just increase this cycle. People call you lazy or weak-willed but you never consider maybe it's the advice to load up on beans, grains, corn and starch that's the problem, not you.
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"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
mmoodd69

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 126

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:28
Diablo360x wrote:
I never said I did not believe. I am saying 1 week is meaningless in weight loss.


First, you are no expert. Let's just all get that out in the open for you since you don't see it.

Second, it's not meaningless if it happened for clearly defined reasons, which I described. It DID happen and I know why.

My fluid intake never changed - I forgot to mention that before, so it was not water weight that suddenly appeared from the few extra grams of low glycemic carb I was test-consuming. My body, apparently, is super-sensitive to insulin. More so than it was before, which is no surprise given my family history.

By the way (you're gonna LOVE this)...

I've been back in ketosis for about 3 days now and after last week's stall, I'm already down to 165.2 this morning. That's about a pound off from the stall, with no increase to speak of in physical activity.

What's my fat secret?

The same as it always was: high saturated fats and very low (but not "no"Wink carbs, with moderate protein, eating when I'm hungry and stopping when I'm not. Counting calories isn't necessary but if counting them takes place at all my body does it, not my conscious mind.

COULDN'T BE SIMPLER, and I love it! Wink
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:37
Good for you but your results are still dictated by CICO. You don't want to count calories and that is fine. There are people who eat clean and don't count who also get results. Doesn't mean they are able to eat above their calorie maintenance. It just means they are eating filling foods. I prefer to eat what I like in moderation while using this site and my barcode scanner to count calories. It could not be simpler for me either. Keep it up!
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
mmoodd69

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 126

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:37
onedaat wrote:
Diabol you obviously aren't reading anything I'm posting.


That's one reason I still suspect Spacey (or whatever his new sockpuppet name is) and Diablo are actually the same person. They're both vain, arrogant, geared up know-it-all gymboys who have the EXACT SAME line of crap, don't know that they're ignorant about many things and are closed-minded and immune to other people's experiences. The only real difference is Spacey was "bad CICO cop" and Diablo tries to play "good CICO cop," but if they're not the same person, they're still so similar that it's creepy.
mmoodd69

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 126

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:39
Diablo360x wrote:
Good for you but your results are still dictated by CICO. You don't want to count calories and that is fine. There are people who eat clean and don't count who also get results. Doesn't mean they are able to eat above their calorie maintenance. It just means they are eating filling foods. I prefer to eat what I like in moderation while using this site and my barcode scanner to count calories. It could not be simpler for me either. Keep it up!


You didn't even try to understand the point I made. Your loss.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 797

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:43
You had NO point. You're not carb sensitive. No such thing. You're not special.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.
mmoodd69

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 126

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 06:51
I've posted that my fasting blood glucose rises every year the doctor tests it. I've posted that my family has a history of adult onset diabetes. I've posted that a minor increase in carbs stalled my weight loss but fat-bombing with the fattest part of ribeye steaks (FAR more as calorically dense than the carbs I upped) kick started my weight loss again.

If CICO is true, that should not be. But it happened. Yet all of this - and more - you ignore.

You and Spacey (same routine even if you're not the same guy) are this board's version of Monty Python's "Argument Clinic." You're just an ignorant, contradictory fool who has nothing of substance to add to any discussion you involve yourself in.

So long, chump. Don't drop the needles in the locker room while gearing up, you can get bad infected that way.
onedaat

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 326

      quote  
Posted: 25 Jul 2013, 07:24
mmoodd69 wrote:
onedaat wrote:
Diabol you obviously aren't reading anything I'm posting.


That's one reason I still suspect Spacey (or whatever his new sockpuppet name is) and Diablo are actually the same person. They're both vain, arrogant, geared up know-it-all gymboys who have the EXACT SAME line of crap, don't know that they're ignorant about many things and are closed-minded and immune to other people's experiences. The only real difference is Spacey was "bad CICO cop" and Diablo tries to play "good CICO cop," but if they're not the same person, they're still so similar that it's creepy.




To me it's just weird that people are so confident that the bio-chemistry of obese people is exactly the same as the BC of lean people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


"It is in vain to speak of cures, or think of remedies, until such time as we have considered the causes . . . cures must be imperfect, lame, and to no purpose, wherein the causes have not first been searched.”

- Robert Burton, The Anatomy of Melancholy

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you don't read the newspaper, you are uninformed. If you do read the newspaper, you are misinformed. - Mark Twain

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



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