Thermodynamics? Not really...

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somethingsim...

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 6

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 18:18
I bet your biggest fear is that of some person following, neigh, chasing you around with a pin trying to pop your bubbles.

You look like a lumpy space prince. <3 Razz

carrot top is one buff mofo.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 18:49
never surrender wrote:
I have absolutely no idea what you are on about


Oh?

Quote:
and I will think you will find that you are making all sorts of unfounded accusations about who and what I am which I have refrained from responding to as I find them and a lot of what you say too ridiculous to comment further on.


I see. But lets be clear, there was only *one* post where I quit pretending about the state of things. And I only did it to be frank with you about the lay of the land. I felt that given the previous interaction with the account named Spacey, a person might think that I was game to do it again. But that is not the case as far as just making fun of posts made simply to offend. I regret my part in making that innocent lady so anguished about the conduct on her thread. I don't regret making a very unreasonable person expose himself as someone more harmful than helpful though.

But you aren't him so no worries.

Quote:
You also need to note that you have more than grief posted yourself in this thread


That would be incorrect.

Quote:
and have fully engaged in what most people would regard as banter.


That would be correct.

Quote:
so lets not descend into hypocrisy shall we


No sir. Hypocrisy is an altogether different animal. I 'bantered' with you until it was clear that you were just trying to grief post. The 'Lol' response to the other post was the clear turning point. I mean, your post telling me I was talking to myself was the start but I gave you the benefit of the doubt and made fun of what you were saying. But that lol post made it clear your aim was purely to grief post, if it wasn't clear enough beforehand.

Quote:
I think its clear to say that this thread has run its course


Um lol. I think that it doesn't really matter what you think. It is arrogant to think you get to decide when a thread has run its course. Particularly since you have been an antagonist, which is fine, the entire thread. Get it? Being an antagonist is not the problem. Being an antagonist, though, means you are not exactly unbiased about the disposition of a thread you do not agree with.

Leaving all of that aside, *if* you think that then why did you make that post and start things up again? And why keep replying afterwards? You are not making posts to counter something of substance.

Quote:
and its only our to and fro that's keeping it going other than yourself


Um. What are you talking about? Dave just posted today at noon. Twice. I replied to him and I welcomed you to FatSecret, your account being brand new and all and you had missed the hubbub by mere hours.

Quote:
posting reams of pages following on from your own posts.


I'm not clear what you are trying to communicate here. 'Reams' of pages? 'following on' from my own posts? I am pretty sure I've been addressing something said in each post of any size. Like the salt post to address what *you* had said about the wisdom of the mainstream. mmodd mentioned the salt thing but I didn't know there was a NY Times article about it. That was important information because just in the last day or two I have seen posts warning other people about 'too much' salt.

Quote:
There is nothing more disingenuous than some one calling you a friend who clearly doesn't mean it.


Yeah. *That* is the most disingenuous thing in the world right there. Well, I can think of one or two other things but ethics can be a very subjective thing apparently.

Quote:
BTW at least my avatar picture is truly one of me whereas as yours is patently false


Of course it isn't me. It is the (awful) comedian Carrot Top. I found the image when I googled for pics of steroids. I did that because I saw a funny post by banned Spacey about steroids. Do you know what other image I saw on that google search, never_surrender? I bet you can guess. Strange coincidences abound.

Smile
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 18:54
somethingsimple wrote:
carrot top is one buff mofo.


lol!

I was surfing around several weeks ago when I watched a youtube and the guy was explaining some of the bad things about steroid use. I was flabbergasted at Carrot Top's transformation and not in a good way. Wow! It isn't surprising he used steroids though. He had all that plastic surgery before he got started on the other stuff.

I never thought he was a good stand up guy but I am sorry to see how his life has worked out for him.
mummydee

Joined: Feb 10
Posts: 2,197

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 19:22
If you two were my boys, i'd bang your heads together!! .lol.. then i'd point out how much alike you are. You both have found something that works for you, You both are passionate about it, You both want to share your views with people and advise them on how to do it. Good on both of you. BUT we are human beings and as such there are thousands if not millions of variables as to why it is not so simple. No matter how many 'scientific' studies are done there is always one to counter it. We can't compare the Innuits to the Pacific Island peoples, just like we can't compare what happened 100 years ago to now.
Why not agree to disagree? and stop going round in circles, more like a mobius circle going nowhere and will never end.....
you two remind me of my marriage !!Wink
ClassicRocke...

Joined: Jan 13
Posts: 948

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 19:24
:~)

***It just means being more independent and not allowing your happiness to be dependent on someone else's demanding and contentious attitudes and actions.***

Wisdom from a friend


May I be free to be the me that I came into this world to be.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 19:45
I dunno mummydee. I mean, I hear ya but I've been on some (non-diet) sites where really it was no holds barred. Almost anything was allowed. As heated as the arguments would get I never saw anyone stoop to sexist insults like the Spacey account did. I mean insults flew back and forth but even there no one crossed that line.

The problem as far as I can tell is that ELMM cannot agree to disagree. Even the most amiable of gurus for ELMM, KK, could not agree to disagree. And they aren't quiet about it either. I mean, silently disagreeing.

Well. If nothing else, at least the thermodynamics thing has been refuted.

Smile
mummydee

Joined: Feb 10
Posts: 2,197

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 19:56
Yes and we have weeded out some of the more unsuitable characters, but it comes down to lets keep it simple..... There will never be an end to the CICO vs LC theories, and that's just what they are , theories.... even if "proven" ... what is proven in my eyes is what works for me,no more ,no less. Everyone has their own opinion and we all know about opinions.
I've been off line for 2 days and coming back to catch up on what's posted, on this thread anyway, i haven't found anything informative or helpful in any way from reading the posts. as i said a mobius strip that will never be resolved... it's time to jump off the merry go round and find a new ride!
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 19:59
Ooooooh. Check out my post on sodium! I think it is on page 10.

And therealdave weighed in with some truly baffling logic and an interesting take on cattle history.

Smile
therealdave

Joined: Mar 13
Posts: 10

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 20:20
reddarin wrote:
therealdave wrote:
By the way, it is complete nonsense to say that cattle weren't fed grain prior to WWII.


Oh?

I don't think that was actually said in the article I quoted. What they said was cattle were moved from grazing on grass to a primarily grain diet to fatten them up quickly post WWII. That doesn't mean they were never fed grains before.


The article that you linked to, and got your quote from, was about grass-fed beef. A direct quote from the article stated "grass-fed beef means it's produced from cows fed a diet of at least 99 percent grass and forage rather than grain". It goes on to say that since WWII they have been moved from the pasture to the feedlot where they are fed grain until they reach market weight. The fact remains that we raise the calorie level of the feed, through higher fat and protein levels in the feed, to get the livestock to gain weight.

I can't do anything with intellectual dishonesty, and I have a very low tolerance for it.
Weight loss is not a physical challenge, it is a mental one.
therealdave

Joined: Mar 13
Posts: 10

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 20:25
reddarin wrote:
Ooooooh. Check out my post on sodium! I think it is on page 10.

And therealdave weighed in with some truly baffling logic and an interesting take on cattle history.

Smile


I guarantee you that we don't think the same! Must be my college education!Very Happy
Weight loss is not a physical challenge, it is a mental one.
mummydee

Joined: Feb 10
Posts: 2,197

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 20:25
k, on cattle, graminoids, is what they eat. or grass fed cattle during the summer months,,, then goes into other grains for winter months in colder climates where grazing can't happen. But wheat is a grass , however with the demand for cattle, beef, the foodlots are feeding the cattle (GMO'D) corn and other vegetation to fatten them up quickly and then has to inject more antibiotics cause the growing conditions are so horrible that disease is prevalant. sad, sick but true.
A cow's stomach is only designed to digest grass or gramenoids.... they graze, they grow naturally and then they die, we eat and the circle of life goes on , (except for vegans who are now throwing darts at me)

As for your sodium lecture. We do need sodium, or at least the iodine in sodium. Our thyroids need it as proven when a huge problem with thyroid disease occurred i believe in the 30's that forced the salt producers to process and include iodine ...""Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of mental retardation"" and so processed table salt became the 'new herb' of cooking.... not like the salt of old. similar to Himilayan salt which is not processed and in its natural form you need so much less.
The Fast food industry uses salt as a drug to get you hooked, similar to MSG.
So what i'm saying is salt by its self is not evil. but most people consume way too much and don't even know it because they never lift a salt shaker.
okay, that's my rant for tonight.
go in peace my children and stay positive.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 20:27
never surrender wrote:
reddarin wrote:


Well. If nothing else, at least the thermodynamics thing has been refuted.

Smile


Now that truly is hilarious,


Uh, if you can actually dispute this what this person is saying about thermodynamics please do:

reddarin wrote:
Thermodynamics does not describe the human metabolism.

[Note: This post is a bit harsh. I know a lot of people 'believe' in thermodynamics so I've edited the post to substantially tone it down out of deference to civility. The original post in all its glory is at the link below. I've noted where I've cut something with [snip] and I had to add {you don't} in one spot so the sentence would make sense. Otherwise, there are no changes to the original text. The image is the post that generated this person's response.]

http://thisisthinprivilege.tumblr.com/post/31058807326/fat-haters-thermodynamics-a-troll-ask

[begin quote without italics]

[end of quote]


[begin edited quote without italics]
I’m a physicist, and you’re [snip] wrong. Sorry. The metabolism is a complex system with many variables. Efficiency of the system varies not only from person to person, but throughout someone’s life. That’s the second law of thermodynamics, the one that governs chemical reactions. You’re hung up on the first law, which is just a conservation law (bookkeeping).

Humans aren’t lawnmowers. [snip] Do you really think a teenager has the same metabolic efficiency and rate as a 70 year-old man? A pregnant person as a non-pregnant person? Someone with a healing wound as someone whose body is enduring the depths of famine (or is dieting)?

The metabolism isn’t perfectly understood, [snip], and even by researchers. There are theories out there about a bodyweight setpoint around which a body fluctuates, but towards which a bodies tends, mostly programmed by genetics and partially by history and environment. This means the metabolism resists weight loss below a certain point, and it also resists weight GAIN above a certain point.

Also, fat people haven’t been shown to, in general, eat any differently than thinner people. Which mean’s they’re not consuming a giant amount of food to make their bodies bigger. And 95% of diets fail long-term, which means your little “it’s easy, eat less move more!” prescription doesn’t work, which, if you’re a scientist (please I hope you’re NOT), points to some kind of fatal flaw in your theory.

Here’s a list of resources compiled by Michelle at the Fat Nutritionist. Which you probably won’t read, if [snip] {you don't} understand how the laws of thermodynamics apply to chemical reactions and human metabolic systems. But my readers are sharp and reflective folks (not literally, freshman!), [snip].
[end of edited quote]
mummydee

Joined: Feb 10
Posts: 2,197

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 21:06
oh wow, i obviously have not banged your heads together hard enough!!! . keep posting quotes and re iterating books published, it doesn't change the fact. we are all different.
My father (hyperthyroid)was 5' 8" skinny as a whip, ate 4,000 cals a day and walked 1 whole block to work, sat at his lab desk all day, walked 1 whole block home and sat on his chair till dinner, went from the chair to the kitchen and back to the chair. watched TV all night and never gained 1 lb. I have hypo thryoid, eat 1,200 - 1,400 a day, love high protein and maintain my weight of 135.... wanted to drop the last 5 - 10 lbs so changed up my diet to include kamut, spelt grains...and rice pasta's still maintaining the 1,200 - 1,400 cals per day and same workout , Over 3 months i gained 15 lbs, so went back to my old eating habits and lost it.. Same cals in same cals out but different input!!
so please, give it a rest. If i wanted to read a book , i would. I know, if you don't like what is posted go to another thread, but i do believe that both of you have good and valid points but you're both proving the definition of insanity,,, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results! Neither of you are going to change the others viewpoints. so get on with it ! Or is it more important to be 'right' than to listen???
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 21:25
mummydee wrote:
k, on cattle, graminoids, is what they eat. or grass fed cattle during the summer months,,, then goes into other grains for winter months in colder climates where grazing can't happen. But wheat is a grass , however with the demand for cattle, beef, the foodlots are feeding the cattle (GMO'D) corn and other vegetation to fatten them up quickly and then has to inject more antibiotics cause the growing conditions are so horrible that disease is prevalant. sad, sick but true.
A cow's stomach is only designed to digest grass or gramenoids.... they graze, they grow naturally and then they die, we eat and the circle of life goes on , (except for vegans who are now throwing darts at me)


I'm not clear on the time frame you are referring to here. The article I'd quoted said that cattle, post WWII, went from primarily a grass diet to primarily a grain diet specifically to fatten them up faster. But you appear to be talking about more modern ranching with GMO products and availability of food stuff in cold climates for cattle? Prior to the shift to a grain based feed, cattle were only fed grain when they had to be if they were in a climate where grazing wasn't possible during some part of the year, no? The first commercial feedlot wasn't in business until 1951

http://www.johnrobbins.info/grass-fed-beef/
Quote:
Traditionally, all beef was grassfed beef, but in the United States today what is commercially available is almost all feedlot beef. The reason? It’s faster, and so more profitable. Seventy-five years ago, steers were 4 or 5 years old at slaughter. Today, they are 14 or 16 months. You can’t take a beef calf from a birth weight of 80 pounds to 1,200 pounds in a little more than a year on grass. It takes enormous quantities of corn, protein supplements, antibiotics and other drugs, including growth hormones.


I think maybe we are saying the same thing though Smile

mummydee wrote:
As for your sodium lecture. We do need sodium, or at least the iodine in sodium. Our thyroids need it as proven when a huge problem with thyroid disease occurred i believe in the 30's that forced the salt producers to process and include iodine ...""Worldwide, iodine deficiency affects two billion people and is the leading preventable cause of mental retardation"" and so processed table salt became the 'new herb' of cooking.... not like the salt of old. similar to Himilayan salt which is not processed and in its natural form you need so much less.
The Fast food industry uses salt as a drug to get you hooked, similar to MSG.
So what i'm saying is salt by its self is not evil. but most people consume way too much and don't even know it because they never lift a salt shaker.
okay, that's my rant for tonight.
go in peace my children and stay positive.


Hmmmm. If I had a lecture it wasn't about sodium it was about the mainstream getting important things wrong and sodium was an excellent and a current news item example. But be that as it may.

Your assertion about people consuming way to much by way of salt as an added ingredient appears to be incorrect. Per the article (and the CDC site) sodium consumption from all sources:

Quote:
The average sodium consumption in the United States, and around the world, is about 3,400 milligrams a day, according to the Institute of Medicine — an amount that has not changed in decades.


The chairman of the committee that created the report stated that it can be harmful to go below 2300mg a day. So if 2300mg is a minimum safe floor, 3400mg does not seem to be extraordinarily high if it is high at all.

But the real problem is not healthy young people eating a lot of sodium rich fast food. The problem is the demographic of more health aware people following the 1500mg a day guideline (or worse intaking as little sodium as humanly possible) that the report shows to be not just unhealthy but dangerous for most people.
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 21:43
Well, it is my thread after all and I do agree with me Smile
ClassicRocke...

Joined: Jan 13
Posts: 948

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 21:45
ROFLMAO... I guess that's it in a nutshell.

***It just means being more independent and not allowing your happiness to be dependent on someone else's demanding and contentious attitudes and actions.***

Wisdom from a friend


May I be free to be the me that I came into this world to be.
mummydee

Joined: Feb 10
Posts: 2,197

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 21:47
I really don't put any credence into any reports put out by the FDA the government and drug administration. They are all in each others pockets and its a business. They in no way give a flying F about the people. It is a multi billion $$ industry and as long as they can "hook" people onto their belief's they will... to keep all in $$$ ,.. it has nothing to do with the health benefits
We need iodine, that's a given, we can get it from dulce, sea foods and may other sources, but the industrialized nation has made a gold mine out of putting it into processed foods and then "okay we'll go healthy, we've reduced our sodium by 50% on the labels" still twice the daily intake needed....
we need to wake up! get real....
reddarin

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 959

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 22:23
Oh, sorry, yes I agree the iodine thing is a real problem. Have you heard that there are new cases of iodine deficiency in the US??

I think I read a post about it last year. As I recall the health official being quoted was sort of shocked about the situation since adding iodine to table salt had been such a huge boon to health back when it was first thought of.

Here is an article with a video I found [ETA: this article is not very old it is from November 2012]:

Iodine Deficiency

somethingsim...

Joined: Jul 13
Posts: 6

      quote  
Posted: 14 Jul 2013, 23:20
...and now I've gone cross-eyed.
Diablo360x

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 817

      quote  
Posted: 15 Jul 2013, 04:18
reddarin wrote:
[quote=Diablo360x]
There is an alternative to eat less move more. A great one. It is called LC.


You can do the same with any food you choose. Somehow CICO requires more movement while LC does not? A calorie deficit over an extended period of time is REQUIRED no matter what. LC just restricts your options and makes a calorie deficit possible without having to count.

Also, please quit saying LC is not restrictive. I can eat ANYTHING I want at anytime without having to worry about my carb total. You CANNOT.
Love your food or risk failure. No quick fixes, this is a lifestyle change. No extremes are needed just consistency.



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