"Fat-shaming may curb obesity" ???

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ebivr

Joined: Jun 08
Posts: 424

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 13:32
I hate the abuse of the term calories in versus calories out. This is simplification at it's worst. We are bombarded with well researched advertising for high processed junk foods for a reason. Because they WORK!

And on top of that we have biological hormones at play that drive us to eat a certain way, eg. drink a diet soda & insulin response to it will drive you to eat more. We instinctively & subconsciously seek out high sugar high fat foods.

On top of this, unlike naturally thin people, dieters have to constantly watch what they eat everyday for the REST OF THEIR LIVES to keep the weight off or else it returns quick smart (Oprah anyone?). As an over weight body never fully adapts to being thin. It will have double or more fat cells than a naturally thin person that it will ALWAYS want to fill back up to its full potential.

So 1) if you're not exposed to the marketing for the worst kinds of foods, & 2) you can constantly control your biochemical response. Then 3) you are one of the lucky 2% on your way to a constant life long task of watching everything that pass through your lips in an effort to fight the biological urge to put the weight back on.

An urge that is so strong that even those that have had gastric bypass 80% of them put most of the weight back on within 3 to 4 years!

The best we can hope for as the over weight is that we will spend more time thin than fat as we yo-yo our years away.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the Law, Love is the whole of the law, Love before will, The meaning of life is to Love"
"Never apologise for who you are"
"Leave as little negative impact on the world as possible"
"Last night fear knocked on my door, faith answered and no one was there"
Even if it's slow it's going to Go!

Starting weight: 318 lbs!! 2nd of June 2008, (Calorie Counting!).

June 08 Month 1: 298 lb (20 lb. lost). July 08 Month 2: 291 lb (7 lb. lost). August 08 Month 3: 279 lb (12 lb. lost). September 08 Month 4: 268 lb (11 lb. lost). October 08 Month 5: 257 lb (11 lb. lost). November 08 Month 6: 248 lb (9 lb. lost). December 08 Month 7: 235 lb (13 lb. lost).

January 2009 Month 8: 229 lb (6 lb. lost). February 09 Month 9: 223 lb (6 lb. lost). March 09 Month 10: 211 lb (12 lb. lost). April 09 Month 11: 208 lb (3 lb. lost). May 09 Month 12: 210 lb (+2 lb. gained). June 09 Month 13: 188 lb (22 lb. lost). July 09 Month 14: 181 lb (7 lb. lost). August 09 Month 15: 179 lb (2 lb. lost).

Starting weight: 305 lbs!! 19th of November 2013, (Atkins!).

November 2012 Month 1: 297.2 lb (7.8 lb. lost). December 2012 Month 2: 292 lb (5.2 lb. lost). January 2013 Month 3: 276.8 lb (15.2 lb. lost). February 2013 Month 4: 262.6 lb (14.2 lb. lost). March 2013 Month 5: 276.6 lb (+14 lb. gained). April 2013 Month 6: 253.4 lb (23.2 lb. lost). May 2013 Month 7: lb ( lb. ).
BgIrn

Joined: Dec 12
Posts: 97

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 14:20
ebivr wrote:
I hate the abuse of the term calories in versus calories out. This is simplification at it's worst. We are bombarded with well researched advertising for high processed junk foods for a reason. Because they WORK!

And on top of that we have biological hormones at play that drive us to eat a certain way, eg. drink a diet soda & insulin response to it will drive you to eat more. We instinctively & subconsciously seek out high sugar high fat foods.

On top of this, unlike naturally thin people, dieters have to constantly watch what they eat everyday for the REST OF THEIR LIVES to keep the weight off or else it returns quick smart (Oprah anyone?). As an over weight body never fully adapts to being thin. It will have double or more fat cells than a naturally thin person that it will ALWAYS want to fill back up to its full potential.

So 1) if you're not exposed to the marketing for the worst kinds of foods, & 2) you can constantly control your biochemical response. Then 3) you are one of the lucky 2% on your way to a constant life long task of watching everything that pass through your lips in an effort to fight the biological urge to put the weight back on.

An urge that is so strong that even those that have had gastric bypass 80% of them put most of the weight back on within 3 to 4 years!

The best we can hope for as the over weight is that we will spend more time thin than fat as we yo-yo our years away.


Please reference some peer reviewed studies proving these "facts" that were conducted on humans. Specifically the diet soda insulin response and hormones other than thyroid produced that change metabolism.

Finally please tell me how any human person can not lose adipose tissue if they use more than they consume.
ebivr

Joined: Jun 08
Posts: 424

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 14:47
it's a simplification because the amount of food one consumes is not equal to the calories one consumes. Eg: 4 apples = 1 snickers bar.

And the term skinny fat person came about because of the resulting body composition of a dieter compared to a naturally thin person. So weight loss is not all about losing fat tissue unfortunately.

The state you're left in after you lose the weight is very important.

And when you say metabolism are you referring to how fast or slow we burn energy? Because I never mentioned that. To me that's the least of our worrying, there are many other things at play contributing to our obesity epidemic before we need to consider looking at that.

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the Law, Love is the whole of the law, Love before will, The meaning of life is to Love"
"Never apologise for who you are"
"Leave as little negative impact on the world as possible"
"Last night fear knocked on my door, faith answered and no one was there"
Even if it's slow it's going to Go!

Starting weight: 318 lbs!! 2nd of June 2008, (Calorie Counting!).

June 08 Month 1: 298 lb (20 lb. lost). July 08 Month 2: 291 lb (7 lb. lost). August 08 Month 3: 279 lb (12 lb. lost). September 08 Month 4: 268 lb (11 lb. lost). October 08 Month 5: 257 lb (11 lb. lost). November 08 Month 6: 248 lb (9 lb. lost). December 08 Month 7: 235 lb (13 lb. lost).

January 2009 Month 8: 229 lb (6 lb. lost). February 09 Month 9: 223 lb (6 lb. lost). March 09 Month 10: 211 lb (12 lb. lost). April 09 Month 11: 208 lb (3 lb. lost). May 09 Month 12: 210 lb (+2 lb. gained). June 09 Month 13: 188 lb (22 lb. lost). July 09 Month 14: 181 lb (7 lb. lost). August 09 Month 15: 179 lb (2 lb. lost).

Starting weight: 305 lbs!! 19th of November 2013, (Atkins!).

November 2012 Month 1: 297.2 lb (7.8 lb. lost). December 2012 Month 2: 292 lb (5.2 lb. lost). January 2013 Month 3: 276.8 lb (15.2 lb. lost). February 2013 Month 4: 262.6 lb (14.2 lb. lost). March 2013 Month 5: 276.6 lb (+14 lb. gained). April 2013 Month 6: 253.4 lb (23.2 lb. lost). May 2013 Month 7: lb ( lb. ).
erika2633

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 799

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 14:56
ebivr wrote:
it's a simplification because the amount of food one consumes is not equal to the calories one consumes. Eg: 4 apples = 1 snickers bar.


The amount of food one consumes is not equal to the calories one consumes? What?
The amount of food one consumes is exactly equal to the calories one consumes.

Yes, the nutritional benefits of the food you consume are going to be different depending on which foods you choose to eat. This conversation goes round and round every time it pops up on a thread..


Someone who is busier than you is working out right now.
There will come a day when you can no longer do this. Today is not that day.
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 14:57
eKatherine wrote:
Spacey47 wrote:

AS FOR Medical insurance dont they take into acount your health history, smoking, weight etc you pay what you have to pay depending where you fit in?


So you're okay with making it harder or even impossible for people who are the unhealthiest to get medical care? How will that make it easier for them to lose weight? Heavy people already are earning less money on the average for the jobs that they have.


You really do take a biased emotive view to everything!

I'm just reporting what happens in the real world, insurance is a BUSINESS based on RISK isn't it?
No matter whether you are overweight or a smoker or someone with an established medical condition you have to pay more as you are more likely to need the insurance.

Same principle applies to household or car insurance.

Whether it's fair or in your opinion moral or not doesn't change the facts does it?
BgIrn

Joined: Dec 12
Posts: 97

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 15:42
ebivr wrote:
it's a simplification because the amount of food one consumes is not equal to the calories one consumes. Eg: 4 apples = 1 snickers bar.


4 Large apples = 440 kcal. 1 Snickers bar = 280 kcal. I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

ebivr wrote:
And the term skinny fat person came about because of the resulting body composition of a dieter compared to a naturally thin person. So weight loss is not all about losing fat tissue unfortunately.

The state you're left in after you lose the weight is very important.


In the human body there is lean body mass which is muscle, bone, organs and fluids. And fatty tissue which is adipose directly below the skin and surrounding the muscle and surrounding the organs (visceral fat). Those two (lean/fat) are a percentage of the whole of the body. That's all there is to it.

ebivr wrote:
And when you say metabolism are you referring to how fast or slow we burn energy? Because I never mentioned that. To me that's the least of our worrying, there are many other things at play contributing to our obesity epidemic before we need to consider looking at that.


Metabolism is the use of energy. When you consume less calories than you metabolize your body metabolizes (uses) fat and then muscle when it runs out of fat. Fat metabolism, or lipolysis is VERY important in the whole equation. So I disagree that metabolism is the least of our worries.
ebivr

Joined: Jun 08
Posts: 424

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 15:55
over here in the UK I eat those average 60 calories apples = 240kc

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the Law, Love is the whole of the law, Love before will, The meaning of life is to Love"
"Never apologise for who you are"
"Leave as little negative impact on the world as possible"
"Last night fear knocked on my door, faith answered and no one was there"
Even if it's slow it's going to Go!

Starting weight: 318 lbs!! 2nd of June 2008, (Calorie Counting!).

June 08 Month 1: 298 lb (20 lb. lost). July 08 Month 2: 291 lb (7 lb. lost). August 08 Month 3: 279 lb (12 lb. lost). September 08 Month 4: 268 lb (11 lb. lost). October 08 Month 5: 257 lb (11 lb. lost). November 08 Month 6: 248 lb (9 lb. lost). December 08 Month 7: 235 lb (13 lb. lost).

January 2009 Month 8: 229 lb (6 lb. lost). February 09 Month 9: 223 lb (6 lb. lost). March 09 Month 10: 211 lb (12 lb. lost). April 09 Month 11: 208 lb (3 lb. lost). May 09 Month 12: 210 lb (+2 lb. gained). June 09 Month 13: 188 lb (22 lb. lost). July 09 Month 14: 181 lb (7 lb. lost). August 09 Month 15: 179 lb (2 lb. lost).

Starting weight: 305 lbs!! 19th of November 2013, (Atkins!).

November 2012 Month 1: 297.2 lb (7.8 lb. lost). December 2012 Month 2: 292 lb (5.2 lb. lost). January 2013 Month 3: 276.8 lb (15.2 lb. lost). February 2013 Month 4: 262.6 lb (14.2 lb. lost). March 2013 Month 5: 276.6 lb (+14 lb. gained). April 2013 Month 6: 253.4 lb (23.2 lb. lost). May 2013 Month 7: lb ( lb. ).
lemonella

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 8

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 14:58
I wonder how many of you are able to critique eKatherine's arguments without resorting to accusations of being too emotional? If her arguments are emotion-based, which they aren't, your quick-jerk impulse to strike her down in that manner are moreso.

Keep on keeping on, eKatherine. Your strength and sensitivity is inspiring.
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 16:11
lemonella wrote:
I wonder how many of you are able to critique eKatherine's arguments without resorting to accusations of being too emotional? If her arguments are emotion-based, which they aren't, your quick-jerk impulse to strike her down in that manner are moreso.

Keep on keeping on, eKatherine. Your strength and sensitivity is inspiring.


well she is often not arguing a point but coming up with some emotional statement that flies in the face of the FACTS for the sake of sounding all supportive and ignores reality.

For instance she accuses me of saying its 'OK for Fat people to pay more insurance'

Highly emotive and subjective and FACTUALLY wrong

the reality is that i am disucssing that people with recognised health risk factors such as Smoking, medical conditions and OBESITY have to pay more insurance

I never said that i thought it was wrong or right merely that thats the way it is......

SO you know it gets a bit wearing after a bit
lemonella

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 8

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 17:57
As your response is positively fraught with emotion, I should thank you for proving my point.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,266

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 20:00
Of course, the issue comes down to whether overweight is a personal choice, like smoking or bungee jumping, or a medical issue for which medicine has yet to find a medical solution. Having people with medical conditions pay more for insurance premiums is the opposite of what insurance is supposed to be about, which is spreading the risk across a large pool of subscribers so as to equalize the costs to all.

Should we ask people with heart conditions or cancer to pay much more for their insurance premiums? How about women, as women have traditionally been charged more for insurance premiums because they have more expensive reproductive health issues. Does that even count as insurance if the cost ends up being passed on to the patient anyway?
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 22:52
lemonella wrote:
As your response is positively fraught with emotion, I should thank you for proving my point.


I think you know you have been found out and are now responding in the classic ignorant manner of someone who has been

Next time engage your brain before running your mouth and you will not look so silly
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

      quote  
Posted: 30 Jan 2013, 23:13
eKatherine wrote:
Of course, the issue comes down to whether overweight is a personal choice, like smoking or bungee jumping, or a medical issue for which medicine has yet to find a medical solution. Having people with medical conditions pay more for insurance premiums is the opposite of what insurance is supposed to be about, which is spreading the risk across a large pool of subscribers so as to equalize the costs to all.

Should we ask people with heart conditions or cancer to pay much more for their insurance premiums? How about women, as women have traditionally been charged more for insurance premiums because they have more expensive reproductive health issues. Does that even count as insurance if the cost ends up being passed on to the patient anyway?


Apart from nicely sidestepping the argument above, I always assumed insurance was a RISK business and that if I lowered my risk my premiums should be lower?


Women pay less motor insurance in the UK than men for that very reason

My wife pays less life insurance than I do simply because she is a woman and is expected to live longer!

As for overweight being a medical condition or personal choice people will argue both sides
But the fact remains that if you put anyone on a calorie controlled diet under controlled conditions and forced them to stick with it and do some time exercise they would inevitably lose weight.


Now before you. Jump on that I'M NOT SAYING WE SHOULD!

But....... if the condition is reversible then it is a personal choice.


By the way most smokers would say they have an addiction and. Therefore a medical condition similar to how obesity and overeating is now being called an addiction



jonnybadback

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 321

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 03:11
Being overweight can be both a choice and/or a medical condition. Being overweight can also be caused by medicine. Most anti depressants cause weight gain regardless of increased exercise or calorie restriction. Maybe in a controlled environment a weightloss could be forced but the calorie restriction would be unsustainable and could cause other complications.
In the UK the nhs provide help With smoking but at the present time is limited in its help With obesity and usually go down the route of surgical intervention rather than the better route of CBT. Surgery is a cheaper fix.

Just a note. Any argument can be regarded as emotive if a person has a bias these can be a result of experience, conscious objection, religion, financial restriction...the list goes on... But it doesn't mean the argument is wrong.

Even insurance companies are addressing the male female risk and are looking to scrap insurance based on sex. Yes they are a business and will use any option to increase payments. They will be spreading their risks as the good risk offsets the bad risks. They would not make any money if they tailored every policy to the individual.
lemonella

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 8

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 17:40
Putting people down when they don't agree with you is a habit well worth breaking. I realize that you are upset, so I won't take it personally.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,266

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 17:56
Saying that "obesity is reversible" is ignoring the reality that few people lose weight, reach their goal, and keep it off by the use of diets, lifestyle changes, or even from surgery. That is simply saying that if only 2% manage to do it, that counts as a cure. Would you have major surgery if there was only a 2% chance of success?

A 2% "success rate" is a failure on the part of medical science, not proof of a cure.
ebivr

Joined: Jun 08
Posts: 424

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 20:16
@eKatherine, Hear hear! *thumbs up*, the facts speak for themselves

"Do what thou wilt shall be the the Law, Love is the whole of the law, Love before will, The meaning of life is to Love"
"Never apologise for who you are"
"Leave as little negative impact on the world as possible"
"Last night fear knocked on my door, faith answered and no one was there"
Even if it's slow it's going to Go!

Starting weight: 318 lbs!! 2nd of June 2008, (Calorie Counting!).

June 08 Month 1: 298 lb (20 lb. lost). July 08 Month 2: 291 lb (7 lb. lost). August 08 Month 3: 279 lb (12 lb. lost). September 08 Month 4: 268 lb (11 lb. lost). October 08 Month 5: 257 lb (11 lb. lost). November 08 Month 6: 248 lb (9 lb. lost). December 08 Month 7: 235 lb (13 lb. lost).

January 2009 Month 8: 229 lb (6 lb. lost). February 09 Month 9: 223 lb (6 lb. lost). March 09 Month 10: 211 lb (12 lb. lost). April 09 Month 11: 208 lb (3 lb. lost). May 09 Month 12: 210 lb (+2 lb. gained). June 09 Month 13: 188 lb (22 lb. lost). July 09 Month 14: 181 lb (7 lb. lost). August 09 Month 15: 179 lb (2 lb. lost).

Starting weight: 305 lbs!! 19th of November 2013, (Atkins!).

November 2012 Month 1: 297.2 lb (7.8 lb. lost). December 2012 Month 2: 292 lb (5.2 lb. lost). January 2013 Month 3: 276.8 lb (15.2 lb. lost). February 2013 Month 4: 262.6 lb (14.2 lb. lost). March 2013 Month 5: 276.6 lb (+14 lb. gained). April 2013 Month 6: 253.4 lb (23.2 lb. lost). May 2013 Month 7: lb ( lb. ).
erika2633

Joined: Nov 11
Posts: 799

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 20:32
eKatherine wrote:
Saying that "obesity is reversible" is ignoring the reality that few people lose weight, reach their goal, and keep it off by the use of diets, lifestyle changes, or even from surgery. That is simply saying that if only 2% manage to do it, that counts as a cure. Would you have major surgery if there was only a 2% chance of success?


That's an extremely unfair analogy. Having a major surgery can kill you. So if they said it was only a 2% success rate, then I'd probably be pretty hesitant. Trying to lose weight and be healthier isn't going to leave you dead on the operating table in 2 hours, so I'd say it's dang well worth a shot.

Now before anyone starts going off about how bad yo-yo dieting is for your health, I know. It's traumatic for your body to go through large amounts of weight loss and gain over and over.

But to just say, "Well, not very many people can lose weight and keep it off, so I'm just not going to try." That's a cop-out. If it's such a futile battle, why are any of us even here?



Someone who is busier than you is working out right now.
There will come a day when you can no longer do this. Today is not that day.
libragirl4fd

Joined: Jan 13
Posts: 13

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 21:09
I have read about so many success stories about people who have lost half their body weight and kept it off for years. And, I'm guessing for the majority, it was not their first attempt. Good Luck!
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

      quote  
Posted: 31 Jan 2013, 23:22
lemonella wrote:
Putting people down when they don't agree with you is a habit well worth breaking. I realize that you are upset, so I won't take it personally.


Are you still here?

Not actually contributing anything to the discussion but just trolling alongRolling Eyes



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