"Fat-shaming may curb obesity" ???

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Theo166

Joined: Nov 12
Posts: 41

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Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 14:46
Peer pressure is not same as bullying.
There are rules and peer pressure to reduce smoking, and it has helped cut rate of smokers.

If it is that bad for you, we can't just say "it's OK to be obese"
--
Goal 1 - Run half marathon in early June (run not walk)
Goal 2 - Drop 100 lbs total before my birthday in late June
astrid a

Joined: Dec 12
Posts: 30

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Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 15:12
There are different types of overweight people, some may respond to peer pressure but most of them will lose weight either in their teens of within a couple of years of gaining it because society is such that there is constant peer pressure on all of us. Most overweight women and some men if they are ridiculed or taunted for their weight will respond by staying home more and eating more , how can this help.
In uk at the moment the government are trying to reduce benefit payments and they are doing it by creating a class of deserving poor and undeserving poor. Increasingly the overweight are being classed as undeserving it isn't making many people lose weight, infact all it has done is increase the suicide rates.
I am disabled and was disabled before I gained weight, I have had strangers come up to me in the street shouting at me to get off my mobilityb scooter and run round the block because the media has told them most people who use scooters do so because they are too obese to walk. I have even been abused when in my wheelchair. If that isn't fat shaming I don't know what is, it hasn't made me lose an ounce, I have started losing weight now because I have a few friends and because my head is in the right place. When I was isolated and too frightened to leave the house I was in no condition to start dieting
Sometimes the only thing in life that you can control is what you put in your mouth!
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 16:48
So what you're saying is that nothing should be done about obesity as a public health or medical issue to find solutions because it's strictly the fault of the obese for eating too much.

This blame you are placing is moral judgment. You are finding the majority of Americans to be moral failures for their medical condition. How is that not disingenuous?

Blaming people's "instant gratification 'ideology'"... How is that not passing moral judgment on them?

You are convinced obesity is not a medical problem, and everyone who is obese should just suck it up and stop being morally lax.

Getting back to the issue of "fat-shaming", what sort of "fat-shaming" is good "fat-shaming" in your eyes and what kind is unacceptable? You did come out in favor of "fat-shaming", remember?

"Fat-shaming" is not some vague idea that will encourage people who are already aware to make healthy choices. It is people calling you names on the street or throwing things or spitting at you because they think you are lazy and gluttonous, even though they don't know you.

It is strangers who think you need to be told you are fat, because you haven't been told enough.

It is weighing kids in front of their peers and making comments to everyone about how fat they are.

It is people declaring that obese people in poverty shouldn't get food stamps, they and their kids should starve until they are fashionably thin and healthy.

It is about not getting hired or not getting raises you have earned because your boss thinks you are lazy and stuff your face all the time, even though he has never have seen you eat. But if you're fat, you must be lazy and stuff your face, that's how people get fat. Right?

That's why twice as many Americans are obese or overweight as only a generation ago, because suddenly they all got lazy and gluttonous?

Do you seriously believe that?

Everything you are saying is couched in the vocabulary of judgment.

Plenty of self-loathing in this thread.
paperiniko

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 343

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Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 17:18
there is no mysterious reason why people got fatter than a generation ago and why Americans as well as most westerners are more and more obese, it is very clear to (almost) everybody.
Then again as they say in my country there is nobody who is more deaf than the one who does not want to listen
BgIrn

Joined: Dec 12
Posts: 97

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Posted: 24 Jan 2013, 19:53
eKatherine wrote:
So what you're saying is that nothing should be done about obesity as a public health or medical issue to find solutions because it's strictly the fault of the obese for eating too much.

This blame you are placing is moral judgment. You are finding the majority of Americans to be moral failures for their medical condition. How is that not disingenuous?

Blaming people's "instant gratification 'ideology'"... How is that not passing moral judgment on them?

You are convinced obesity is not a medical problem, and everyone who is obese should just suck it up and stop being morally lax.

Getting back to the issue of "fat-shaming", what sort of "fat-shaming" is good "fat-shaming" in your eyes and what kind is unacceptable? You did come out in favor of "fat-shaming", remember?

"Fat-shaming" is not some vague idea that will encourage people who are already aware to make healthy choices. It is people calling you names on the street or throwing things or spitting at you because they think you are lazy and gluttonous, even though they don't know you.

It is strangers who think you need to be told you are fat, because you haven't been told enough.

It is weighing kids in front of their peers and making comments to everyone about how fat they are.

It is people declaring that obese people in poverty shouldn't get food stamps, they and their kids should starve until they are fashionably thin and healthy.

It is about not getting hired or not getting raises you have earned because your boss thinks you are lazy and stuff your face all the time, even though he has never have seen you eat. But if you're fat, you must be lazy and stuff your face, that's how people get fat. Right?

That's why twice as many Americans are obese or overweight as only a generation ago, because suddenly they all got lazy and gluttonous?

Do you seriously believe that?

Everything you are saying is couched in the vocabulary of judgment.

Plenty of self-loathing in this thread.




Since I know that you will respond I will ask you to demonstrate when I have advocated "fat shaming".

Since you have moved the goalposts and most likely will continue to do so, have a wonderful day.
jonnybadback

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 321

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 06:03
Its interesting that it has been mentioned in the posts that medical practice should refrain from assisting. Does that mean they should stop helping people with aids or std's as they chose to have sex? Or people with liver disease cos they drank? Or handing out clean needles to drug users? Where is the line drawn? Food can be an addiction as much as drugs alcohol and smoking.
liv001

Joined: Oct 09
Posts: 676

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 08:58
Maybe the point has been over exaggerated now. The person who suggested this did not say discrimination or suggest that personal attacks on people were in any ways accepted.

What the person in the article is talking about is
"policies aim[ing] at “self-consciously attempting to move people in directions that will make their lives better."

He suggest that careful phrases in some campaigns to nudge people towards starting to make better decisions when it comes to food. These phrases however would be explicitly directed to overweight people not just "general health"

He also suggest things like lowering portion sizes (I like this one), cup sizes, where food is placed.

These would be subtle things that could work towards lowering the accepteblilty of over consumption

My suggestion would be to cancel Diners Drive ins and dives Smile
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 09:41
Overconsumption is already unacceptable. Otherwise fat-shaming would not already be endemic, even among many who are fat or formerly fat.
liv001

Joined: Oct 09
Posts: 676

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 09:44
Well is it? Portion sizes are so big now in restaurants. Cup sizes are enourmous for all drinks. That indicate that bigger is better not that smaller is smarter
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 10:17
It's a tricky one this clearly it is a serious problem that needs to be addressed
Carrot or stick? Possibly both.

Most people who stop any unhealthy activity be it smoking, drinking to excess or drugs
Usually end up doing it off their own will power because some thing has incentivised to do so,
Such as a health scare,a life change maybe having or wishing to become a parent. Etc

All society can do is either make it illegal I.e. drugs or expensive smoking and drinking, in the UK tax on cigarettes is very high plus you can't smoke indoors any where.



Now the talk is of taxing unhealthy food in the same way as cigarettes would that help certainly help pay for the diabetes and health treatments associated with obesity


Should obese people pay more for flights than normal weight people seeing as they charge for excess baggage and it costs more to carry them.

maybe you make people pay for their vices but support them to give them up

And I don't think the guy who made the comment meant literally shaming people in the street
mikefarinha

Joined: Jun 11
Posts: 443

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 10:38
Personally I consider obesity a complex metabolic disease, just like diabetes or heart disease. With the social stigma surrounding obesity and resulting psychosis that already afflicts the obese, I think the idea of shaming people of their condition is outright ludicrous.

-Mike
"Eat as if your life depends on it!"
jonnybadback

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 321

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Posted: 25 Jan 2013, 15:59
Well said Spacey. perhaps restaurants and takeaways should have a max calorie on a food portion rather than cheap oversized foods. They would probably make more profit and turn out better tasting food lol
paperiniko

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 343

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Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 05:57
I do not think the government can or should impose portion controls also because it would be easy to circumvent, like it is already done today by companies like domino or pizza uno that sell pizza with over 2000 kcal and then set the suggested portion at 1/8 of that well knowing that nobody will eat 1/8 of a pizza.

On the other side it is a fact that the obesity has real economic and health implications, and I think that information along with higher insurance premiums on those are obese can have some effect.
Not an easy solution since it is clear that food is for many people a drug with deep psychological implications and addiction like behaviours. As for all additions though, tough love sometime is better than indifference or politically correct BS such as the one I am reading from certain fat acceptance groups
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

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Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 07:46
It always comes back to the moral component. "You chose to be fat, so we're going to hit you with a big financial penalty without giving you a path to permanent weight loss. That way you'll stop choosing to be fat, and we can continue eating our jumbo portions just like we want to."

You're admitting that to you it's not a medical issue, it's a moral issue. How does putting a hefty tax on being unwell result in people spontaneously becoming well? How will making medical insurance unavailable to the obese solve the problem?

The chances are very good that two years ago we were all fat. Many of us have been fat much of our adult lives. I know I was. I certainly knew it was socially unacceptable to be fat. I certainly knew it was inconvenient to be fat. I knew it made my feet hurt so much I wasn't able to exercise, not that I could have afforded to go to a gym, and even when I used to exercise regularly it didn't make me thin. I knew that it is unhealthy to be fat, although I also know that much of the "data" which is quoted is propaganda that is more like fat-shaming than real science.

The fact is that it is healthier for a fat person to be fit than for them to go on a series of yo-yo diet, which are nothing but a downward spiral into worsening physical condition.

Which of you did not know these things? Which of you did not know at that time that it is socially unacceptable to be fat? Which of you did not know at that time that it is inconvenient not to be able to buy regular clothes at the store? Which of you did not know at that time that the majority of Americans sits on the couch watching hours of television every day while snacking away but considers YOU to be the number one public health threat?

The idea that it is socially unacceptable to consume large portions in restaurants is a lie. It is only socially unacceptable for those who are fat. Skinny people do it all the time and nobody says a peep about it.

Good luck changing our consumerist culture and the free market that makes more money by convincing people to overconsume.

In fact, restaurants aren't even the primary cause of obesity. The problem is that 90% of excess calories are consumed during permasnacking. Did you snack? Of course! Do you still snack?

So why didn't you just stop it? You're saying 150 million people could just stop eating, when it is something that clearly you spent much of your own lives unable to act on?
paperiniko

Joined: Jul 11
Posts: 343

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Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 09:39
clearly there is something about this topic that is quite emotional for you and does not allow to read what others write or think for what it is, right or wrong.

All our opinions or judgements are based on values so this "allegation" of passing moral judgement is quite banal and it applies to all your posts too by the way.
I never said that fat people should be taxed but that as a consequence of their (our) bad nutrition management it will be a natural consequence that health premiums go higherfor them, and this could help at least some to take action.
In any case my opinions are based on the idea that we master our destiny and that we should be responsible for our choices and actions , may those be smoking, overeating or anything else.
Of course that is based on my assumption that for the vast majority of people obesity is due to too many calories eaten and too few burnt, if one does not believe that, one might reach different conclusions.

In any case in all fields of life I feel a certain aversion towards the points of view that always try to downplay personal responsibility as opposed to social, it always sounds like the old "it's always somebody else's fault argument" that we used when we were little
Spacey47

Joined: Apr 12
Posts: 916

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Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 09:48
People have to pay tax on fAlcohol and Cigarettes why not on UNhealthy foods, that way it applies to ANYONE who buys them whether or not they are thin or fat so there is no discrimination or moral issue. I know of plenty of thin people who eat crap all day long.




AS FOR Medical insurance dont they take into acount your health history, smoking, weight etc you pay what you have to pay depending where you fit in?

liv001

Joined: Oct 09
Posts: 676

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 09:59
paperiniko wrote:
I do not think the government can or should impose portion controls also because it would be easy to circumvent, like it is already done today by companies like domino or pizza uno that sell pizza with over 2000 kcal and then set the suggested portion at 1/8 of that well knowing that nobody will eat 1/8 of a pizza.

On the other side it is a fact that the obesity has real economic and health implications, and I think that information along with higher insurance premiums on those are obese can have some effect.
Not an easy solution since it is clear that food is for many people a drug with deep psychological implications and addiction like behaviours. As for all additions though, tough love sometime is better than indifference or politically correct BS such as the one I am reading from certain fat acceptance groups


I agree with this. It has to be a personal responsibility. Food is ultimately about choice. I do not see why it is so wrong to point that out.
Now it does not necessarily follow that it is easy to make some choices.
We are probably instinctively beings who like to eat and being fat is natural because a famine may come and kill us. But given that we have (in some parts of the world) eliminated famine, we have no choice but to use brain power and common sense to combat this.

Having a culture that celebrates big portions is not exactly helping the cause.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 10:47
Spacey47 wrote:

AS FOR Medical insurance dont they take into acount your health history, smoking, weight etc you pay what you have to pay depending where you fit in?


So you're okay with making it harder or even impossible for people who are the unhealthiest to get medical care? How will that make it easier for them to lose weight? Heavy people already are earning less money on the average for the jobs that they have.
eKatherine

Joined: Aug 12
Posts: 1,286

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 10:52
liv001 wrote:
I agree with this. It has to be a personal responsibility. Food is ultimately about choice. I do not see why it is so wrong to point that out.


As long as you admit that for you it is a moral issue, people who fail to take personal responsibility because they have chosen to make bad choices.

Just as you used to, and so it would have been a good thing for people to point that out to you at the time when you were fat and had no clear way of changing that fact. Because obviously the more moral people were morally obligated to continually point that out until you decided to stop being immoral.
liv001

Joined: Oct 09
Posts: 676

      quote  
Posted: 27 Jan 2013, 11:02
What does "had no clear way of changing that fact" mean to you?



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